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  • King County Sheriff’s Office Immigration Policies Praised in UW Report From Human Rights Center

    King County Sheriff’s Office Immigration Policies Praised in UW Report From Human Rights Center
    September 28, 2017



    (SEATTLE, WA.) — A new research memo issued Wednesday by the University of Washington Human Rights Center titled, “Don’t Ask, Do Tell,” praises the policies adopted by the King County Sheriff’s office.

    The report analyzes local law enforcement policy guidelines regarding collaboration with federal immigration agencies.

    The full report, found here notes that three jurisdictions in Washington State – the King County Sheriff’s Office, Pierce County Sheriff’s Department, and the Bellevue Police Department – have policies specifying the difference between a “judicially signed warrant” and an ICE administrative warrant.

    The report says, “In response to the courts’ criticism [on ICE detainer warrants], ICE has increasingly issued its own administrative warrants to accompany detainers.” The memo explains that ICE administrative warrants “are not the same as criminal warrants, which typically require a finding of probable cause that is reviewed and signed off by a neutral judge.

    ICE agents write and sign administrative warrants themselves and because they are not signed by a judge, they are insufficient to meet the Fourth Amendment concerns laid out by the courts, according to the report.

    Background on King County Sheriff Department policy ICE warrant policy

    In March of this year, Sheriff John Urquhart was contacted by the Northwest Immigration Rights Project regarding rumors of a local police officer arresting someone in downtown Seattle and delivering him to the ICE detention facility in Des Moines.

    That particular rumor turned out to be false, but it revealed that some deputies were not distinguishing between judicially-signed warrants and ICE administrative warrants, according to a recent statement from the sheriff’s office.

    In response, Sheriff Urquhart ordered the policy changed and sent out the following directive:

    Sheriff’s deputies are not to stop, arrest, detain, or transport anyone for any length of time because they get a NCIC “hit” on an Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) warrant or detainer. To do so is a violation of the 4th Amendment related to Search and Seizure, and therefore is a violation of that person’s constitutional rights.

    Detainers and ICE warrants are not based on probable cause. They are not signed by a neutral judge or magistrate, but are typically signed “by almost anyone” authorized within ICE. They are not reviewed by any court. They cannot be served by local law enforcement.

    If a deputy has probable cause to believe someone is in this country illegally, they still cannot be stopped or detained. Simply being present in the U.S. without lawful immigration status is not a crime. It is a civil violation.

    There are some criminal immigration violations and occasionally you may get a hit on a valid criminal warrant signed by a Federal judge. The warrant should name at least the court that issued the warrant, and can be verified through DATA, like we would do with any other judicially issued arrest warrant.

    John Urquhart, Sheriff



    See the article here
  • ‘It’s OK if you don’t want to talk to me’: King County deputies will use simpler Miranda warning for young people

    The simplified warnings, according to the sheriff’s office, are consistent with research on adolescent brain science that shows teens are not fully developed in their judgment, problem-solving and decision-making capabilities.


    The King County sheriff’s office says it’s trying to make it easier for kids to understand their rights when they get arrested.

    Sheriff John Urquhart says deputies will provide juveniles a simpler version of the Miranda warning. For example, instead of saying, “You have the right to remain silent” and “Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law,” deputies will tell them, “You have the right to remain silent, which means that you don’t have to say anything,” and “It’s OK if you don’t want to talk to me.”

    The new warning was developed in collaboration with the county’s Department of Public Defense and Creative Justice, a community-based nonprofit that works with children.

    The simplified warnings, according to the sheriff’s office, are consistent with research on adolescent brain science that shows teens are not fully developed in their judgment, problem-solving and decision-making capabilities. Adolescents, the studies show, are more likely than adults to waive their Miranda rights and are vulnerable to going along with police when they ask teens if they want to talk.

    Here is the newly adopted Miranda warning that will be read in addition to the traditional version:

    1. You have the right to remain silent, which means that you don’t have to say anything.

    2. It’s OK if you don’t want to talk to me.

    3. If you do want to talk to me, I can tell the juvenile court judge or adult court judge and probation officer what you tell me.

    4. You have the right to talk to a free lawyer right now.  That free lawyer works for you and is available at any time – even late at night.  That lawyer does not tell anyone what you tell them.  That free lawyer helps you decide if it’s a good idea to answer questions.  That free lawyer can be with you if you want to talk with me.

    5.  If you start to answer my questions, you can change your mind and stop at any time. I won’t ask you any more questions.


    1. Do you understand? (If yes, then continue to number 2)

    2. Do you want to have a lawyer? (If no, then continue to number 3)

    3. Do you want to talk with me? (If yes, then proceed with questioning)

    For comparison, here is the conventional version

    1. You have the right to remain silent.

    2. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

    3. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you.

    4. Do you understand the rights I have just read to you?

    5. With these rights in mind, do you wish to speak to me?”

    “Criminal convictions have much larger and longer impacts than a possible jail sentence,” said Sheriff John Urquhart in the statement.  “We want to help youth succeed.  That’s why we’re asking them to help us solve crimes while at the same time we are working harder to protect their rights.”

    Anita Khandelwal, the interim deputy director of the Department of Public Defense, said the partnership could become a model for reform of the county’s justice system.

    “We are thrilled that we have been able to partner with the King County Sheriff’s Office and the community to help our juvenile justice system practices take into account the science,” she said in the statement.

    So far, there is no word from Seattle police about whether they plan to also adopt the simplified version of the Miranda when dealing with juveniles.

    The Miranda warning comes from the 1966 U.S. Supreme Court decision requiring law-enforcement officers to warn suspects they have the right to remain silent and to have an attorney present when answering questions.

  • Watchdog Praises Sheriff’s Response to ‘Troubling’ Traffic Stop

    A county detective is on leave after sticking a gun in a driver’s face without identifying himself.

    By , Seattle Weekly. Tuesday, August 29, 2017 4:36pm


    On Monday, a video published online showing a King County motorcyclist holding his hands up at gunpoint. The gunman was a middle aged, balding white man wearing a dark green polo shirt, a navy blue windbreaker, and dark sunglasses. Casually aiming a black semiautomatic pistol at the motorcyclist, the gunman reached into the motorcyclist’s pocket and pulled something out.

    “That’s my wallet,” said the motorcyclist.

    “Yep,” said the gunman.

    “You have a gun drawn on me, so I’m a little panicked,” said the motorcyclist.

    “You’re right, because I’m the police,” replied the gunman. Thirty seconds had passed since he first appeared next to the motorcyclist. Behind the motorcyclist was an unmarked police car with emergency lights flashing but no siren. Careful review of the video shows a badge hanging from the gunman’s right pants pocket, but because of how he faced the motorcyclist that badge wasn’t visible during the encounter.

    While examining the identification he found in the motorcyclist’s wallet, the gunman absentmindedly holstered his weapon.

    YouTube user Squid Tips (identified as Alex Randall by KIRO 7) published the video on Monday. According to the video’s title, the actual stickup occurred on Wednesday, August 16. In text included in the video, Randall says that he has filed complaints with the Sheriff’s Department, the Office of the Ombudsman, and the Office of Law Enforcement Oversight (OLEO). “The video shows the boldness of the King County Sheriffs Deputies and lack of fear of repurcussions in threatening and intimidating an unarmed citizen with excessive use of force,” he wrote.

    In response to the video, on Monday afternoon King County Sheriff John Urquhart posted on his personal Facebook page that “I have ordered the detective [i.e. gunman] to be placed on administrative leave as of Tuesday morning pending a full investigation of the facts.

    “With the caveat that I have not yet heard the other side of the story, I was deeply disturbed with the conduct and tactics that were recorded,” he wrote. Urquhart told KIRO 7 that he plans to use the video as a training tool for new recruits, so they “know specifically what they’re not allowed to do.”

    Spokesperson Sgt. Cindi West said that the name of the detective will be released on Wednesday after 5 p.m., per department policy to withhold officer names from the public for 48 hours after an incident.

    According to OLEO, the Sheriff department’s internal investigation team has 180 days to investigate the stickup; that deadline is mandated by the police union’s contract. Afterwards, OLEO will review and certify (or not) the investigation to ensure it was “thorough and objective,” said director Deborah Jacobs, who called the video “troubling.”

    Jacobs praised Urquhart’s quick response to the video. “I think that’s exactly right: it’s a great example of what not to do during a traffic stop.” It also validates other allegations of similar conduct by police, she said. “You hear all the time, ‘The cop didn’t identify himself.’ A lot of times those complaints are discarded, and this is a chance to say, ‘No, actually this does happen.’

    “This is an open investigation,” she added, “but it’s hard to imagine circumstances that would call for conduct like that.”

    Read the article here.

  • Sheriff John Urquhart to Transgender Service Members: Come Work With Us

    By John Paul Brammer, NBC News

    JUL 28 2017, 7:00 PM ET

    The sheriff of Washington state’s King County tweeted support for transgender service members on Thursday, one day after President Donald Trump stated on Twitter that transgender people will not be able to serve “in any capacity in the U.S. Military.”

    “I respect anyone who steps up to serve our country and community, whether they’re a member of the armed forces or a first responder,” Sheriff John Urquhart told NBC News. “I’m proud to have transgender individuals serving within our ranks, and they do an excellent job protecting our community day in and day out.”

    NBC Out #Pride30 honoree Jaime Deer, an openly transgender deputy currently serving under Sheriff Urquhart in King County, is one such individual.

    President Trump’s series of surprise tweets Wednesday morning left many scrambling for clarity. But as of yet, there has been no official change to the Obama-era policy allowing trans people to serve openly, which has been in effect since June 2016. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on Thursday said the U.S. military will not make any changes to its transgender policy until President Trump clarifies what he meant in his tweets.

    “If they can do the job, they will always have a home here,” Sheriff Urquhart said. “Any transgender person forced out of the military is invited to apply!


    Find the full article here

  • 26 arrested in ‘Operation Quiet Nights,’ targeting gun violence in South King County

    POSTED 6:08 PM, JUNE 26, 2017, BY , UPDATED AT 10:10PM, JUNE 26, 2017

    KENT, Wash. – A collaborative law enforcement effort targeting gun violence in South King County is showing promising trends. In the first four months of 2017, there were 16 gun-related homicides and 48 shootings in which people were hit but survived.

    Fourteen local, state and federal agencies have been working on a task force to combat the gun violence.

    “Over the past two months, we have seen a reduction in shooting incidents per month from over 65 per month average over the first four months down to 36 shootings per month in the past two months,” said Kent Police Chief Ken Thomas.

    One area where he says police remain challenged is youth and firearms. Much of the violence has been carried out by juveniles recruited by gang leaders because there is little accountability for gun violations in the juvenile justice system.

    “We are going to get out there and we are going to catch these shooters and we’re gonna take those off the streets,” said King County Sheriff John Urquhart. “Our No. 2 message is to the parents of these juveniles. Get these kids out of gangs. Keep them away from guns, or your kids are gonna get killed.”

    Chief Thomas pointed to an incident in mid-March on a bus filled with 62 elementary kids as an example. Two teens were arrested after threatening to kill a bus driver with a fully loaded firearm with an additional 30 round magazine.

    “As our detectives interviewed the bus driver the next day, he was still sobbing. He was so upset and scared because he felt that he was going to be shot that day and the danger it exposed the children too,” said Chief Thomas. The juvenile court sentenced the 15 and 16-year-old boys to less than a month in detention.

    Last week during a U.S. Marshals led sweep of violent offenders in South King County dubbed Operation Quiet Nights, officers arrested 26 suspects involved in gang violence including 7 juveniles for felony firearms violations.

    “Five of those subjects are already back out on the streets,” Thomas said.

    The fugitive sweep was planned in advance of summer when gun violence typically heats up between rival groups and gangs.

    “After this operation is over, we are going to continue to maintain pressure on these gang members in South King County. We are going to continue to look for anybody with an active warrant who has gang connections,” said Supervisory Deputy Michael Leigh with the U.S. Marshals Pacific NW Violent Offender Task Force.

    The goal is to serve as a visible reminder to the those involved in gun violence in South King County that law enforcement is actively working to get them off the streets.

    “Prior to the initiative, we were averaging over 11 shootings where people were hit per month and we are now down to four shooting where people were hit per month,” Thomas said.

  • King County deputy fired for putting pepper spray on homeless man’s water bottle

    KING 5’s Amanda Grace reports.

    A King County Sheriff’s deputy has been fired for “abusing” authority and spraying pepper spray on a homeless person’s belongings, according to the King County Sheriff’s Office.

    Former Deputy Derek DeZiel admitted to putting pepper spray on a homeless man’s water bottle in an attempt to clear out an encampment in Fall City in November 2016, according to internal documents obtained by KING 5.

    In the recorded investigation, DeZiel said there was a person that was living under the bridges, and he wanted to send a message to the homeless man that he wasn’t welcome there.

    “I put a little squirt of pepper spray on the end of a water bottle to deter him from coming back,” DeZiel said. “He’s going to touch it. He’s going to understand that he’s no longer welcome here, and he won’t be under the bridges anymore.”



    In DeZiel’s termination letter, King County Sheriff John Urquhart called DeZiel’s rationale for pepper spraying the water bottle “concerning.”

    “I don’t find the fact that you pepper sprayed the water bottle of a homeless person ‘benign,’” Urquhart wrote. “Not in the least. I find it an attack on the most vulnerable and powerless segment of society by the most powerful segment of society…a police officer.”

    DeZiel’s last day was May 5.

    During the investigation, investigators asked DeZiel if he thought it was the right thing to do.

    “I did not have a problem with it, no,” DeZiel said.

    Deziel said he learned the tactic when he was a junior deputy, and it was something he had done before. He said he wasn’t trying to seriously hurt anyone.

    DeZiel’s partner, Ryan Sprecher, saw the pepper spray incident and reported DeZiel’s actions. In his own interview, Sprecher said he “was kind of disappointed in his action,” and “it didn’t seem right to me.”

    During DeZiel’s 24-minute long interview, one investigator, who represented the King County Police Officer’s Guild, appeared to downplay the pepper spraying. He asked if it was organic. DeZiel said yes. Then the union representative said, “I know a guy that would put that on his tacos.”

    Sprecher did not take the spraying of pepper spray lightly.

    “I’ve been involved, you know, in OC (pepper spray) and it’s not fun,” Sprecher said. “I really wouldn’t want it in my mouth. Especially drinking water.”

    DeZiel Loudermill Results Letter – Redacted


    © 2017 KING-TV

  • King County Sheriff’s Office makes changes to hire more women and minorities

    KING 5’s Greg Copeland reports.

    The King County Sheriff’s Office has made some changes to put more women in uniform.

    And now the sheriff hopes his department can be used as a model nationwide. It all started with Department of Justice report last October.  Prior to that, Sheriff John Urquhart says the hiring was fairly routine, former military.

    “They make great hires. There’s no question about that,” said Urquhart. “The problem is, what we’ve found is they’re all male that are applying, and they’re all white.”

    Women who were applying often didn’t make it through the first round. Like many police agencies in the state, the civil service testing for King County is conducted by a private company. Recruits are run through a series exams, including psychological, a polygraph, oral board, writing ability, and physical ability. Men and women are scored the same on the physical tests, and many women couldn’t keep up.

    “Sprints, push-ups, sit-ups, a mile-and-a-half run that you have to do in a set period of time,” said Urquhart.

    So the first thing the sheriff’s office did was throw out that physical test at the beginning of the hiring process, started with more female recruits and got them physically fit enough to pass the test as required before they entered the academy.

    But that’s not all. Per King County, military recruits get an extra 10-percent on their civil exams, which often put them at the top of the class. So Urquhart petitioned for the same 10 percent for members of the Peace Corps, an organization composed of 70 percent women, and for those who speak a second language.

    “Now think how valuable that is for a police officer to speak that second language, especially in King County when there’s 130 languages that are spoken,” he said.

    And the changes seem to be helping. In the first quarter of this year, 46 percent of the new recruits for the sheriff’s office were women and/or persons of color.

    Sheriff Urquhart knows there’s a long way to go to get his department to mirror the community it serves. Right now it’s 19 percent female, but he would like to see that at 50 percent.

    While the DOJ is going over KCSO data back to 2009, Urquart hopes when the investigation is complete, the DOJ will see his department as a model for others across the country.

    © 2017 KING-TV

  • ‘It’s beautiful’: Memorial unveiled to 15 fallen King County deputies and 1 sheriff

    As relatives of the slain watched, King County Sheriff John Urquhart pulled back a curtain to reveal the marble memorial with individual glass plaques.

    The first to be killed was in 1854; the last in 2006.

    On Friday, the King County Sheriff’s Office unveiled a memorial to honor 15 deputies and 1 sheriff killed in the line of duty since the office was established in 1852.

     As relatives of the slain watched, Sheriff John Urquhart pulled back a curtain to reveal the stunning marble memorial with individual glass plaques, located on a wall outside the entrance to the sheriff’s headquarters at the King County Courthouse in downtown Seattle.

    “King County never forgets its fallen,” said Metropolitan King County Councilmember Reagan Dunn, who played a major role in bringing about the memorial.

    Although the event had been planned for some time, it coincided with what Dunn described as the “heavy hearts” in the crowd reeling from the fatal shooting Wednesday of Tacoma Police Officer Reginald “Jake” Gutierrez.

    Urquhart said construction of the memorial was one of his chief goals since being elected sheriff four years ago — something long overdue, he added.

    “It’s been a long time coming, but today is that day,” he said.

    Still, “it is bittersweet,” Urquhart said of the timing, noting Gutierrez gave his life during a domestic-violence call so familiar to law-enforcement officers.

    He also pointed to the deaths, nationwide, of 134 officers and deputies killed in the line of duty so far this year, 63 by gunfire, a 64 percent increase over last year.

    “Several of those cases, officers were targeted, solely for the fact they put on a uniform, a badge and a gun just to protect their community each and every day,” Urquhart said.

    Of the 16 members honored on the memorial, Urquhart said 14 died as a result of homicidal acts and two from motorcycle accidents. Two were killed with their own weapons, he said, undermining what he called the myth that unarmed people pose no danger.

    The memorial not only honors those who died, but also strengthens the resolve of those who serve, Urquhart said.

    After the remarks, dozens of family members of those being recognized, many carrying red roses, gathered in front of the memorial to await its unveiling.

    Among them was Don Armeni, 85, of Kalama, Cowlitz County, whose father Donald A. Armeni was shot and killed on Sept. 15, 1954, by a suspect he was taking into custody for commitment on an insanity warrant.

    The son was 23 when he lost his father.

    “I had just moved to Longview, Washington. I was there eight days. And they called me and said he had been killed. Yeah, it was kind of a shock, of course.”

    About 1,000 people attended his father’s service, he said.

    “I remember the procession was as long as I could see back,” he said of the vehicles that included many from various law-enforcement agencies.

    The new memorial, he said, was rewarding to his family. And for the public, he said, it comes at a time when law enforcement is confronting so much change and new requirements.

    “I feel sorry for all the officers today,” he said. “My dad … almost wouldn’t believe the way it’s changed.”

    The memorial plaques contain the names of all 16 who died, along with badges from their respective eras.

    The first killed was Deputy Wesley F. Cherry, who was shot on March 6, 1854, while searching with a posse for murder suspects on Whidbey Island, then part of King County in Washington Territory, before statehood. He had served for one day.

    The most recent occurred Dec. 2, 2006 — 10 years to the day before Friday’s event — when Deputy Steve Cox was fatally shot while interviewing a man in the White Center area.

    The only sheriff to die on duty was Louis V. Wyckoff, who suffered a heart attack on Jan. 21, 1882, while defending prisoners from a vigilante mob that hanged two suspects in a fatal robbery and another prisoner.

    Urquhart spoke their names and the 13 others.

    As he pulled back the curtain covering the memorial, a woman among the family members gasped.

    Her voice quavering with emotion, she exclaimed, “It’s beautiful.”

    Relatives then placed their roses on a cloth-covered table below the memorial.

    One reached out her hand to touch the name of Deputy Richard S. Cochran II, killed on May 22, 1991, in a motorcycle accident while on duty.

    A photo caption with this article, originally published Dec. 2, 2016, was corrected Dec. 3, 2016. In a previous version of this story, a caption misidentified a visitor to the new memorial and the relative she was there to honor. Elizabeth Stratton came to remember her brother, Deputy Richard S. Cochran II.

  • Sheriff: Intricacies of immigration enforcement lost on Donald Trump

    King County Sheriff John Urquhart told KIRO Radio’s Ron and Don immigration enforcement is a tricky issue that Donald Trump can’t understand.
    LISTEN: Sheriff Urquhart can’t really help Trump deport people

    President-elect Donald Trump says he plans to deport 2 million illegal immigrants who are criminals.

    “We’re getting them out of our country or we’re going to incarcerate,” Trump said on “60 Minutes.”

    KIRO Radio’s Ron and Don asked King County Sheriff John Urquhart if that’s an accurate number.

    “You gotta consider the source,” Urquhart said. “I have no idea where he comes up with that number. I’ve heard President Obama say there are 12 million undocumented immigrants in this country; let’s go with that. But I have no idea how many are so-called criminals.”

    King County’s policy

    Sheriff Urquhart says his deputies are not allowed to ask the status of one’s immigration — a policy that dates back at least 25 years.

    “They’re not allowed to ask for a green card, they’re not allowed to ask if they’re in the country legally or illegally, they can’t ask anything about that,” he said.

    Urquhart says this is nothing new with the Sheriff’s Office or the Northwest.

    For example, Urquhart ran through a few scenarios. A dad is arrested for stealing baby food at a store — he’ll get a few hours or a night in jail. Deputies should not concern themselves with the man’s immigration status, even if they suspect he’s undocumented. In a second scenario, deputies arrest a man who is a known drug dealer working with the Mexican cartel and they suspect he’s undocumented.

    “We better darn well be calling ICE. There’s a finesse to all of this that is totally lost on most people, not the least of which is Donald Trump.”

    Deportation force

    As for a federal deportation force, Urquhart says “knock yourselves out.” But deputies won’t be going door-to-door to inspect people’s papers.

    “We are not an arm of the federal government,” he said. “We will not enforce federal laws including immigration laws. No police department in this part of the country can do that.”

    In his first 100 Days, Trump promised to cut federal funding to sanctuary cities. Urquhart said that doesn’t really affect him as a cop, nor does it affect the Sheriff’s Office as it doesn’t receive too much federal funding.

    “But I think it would have a significant effect on King County as a whole and maybe it would have a trickle-down effect on the Sheriff’s Office.”

    He said it’s probably something the City of Seattle should be worried about.

    Urquhart says it’s not entirely clear what a “sanctuary city” is, much less a sanctuary county. He imagines everyone’s definition is slightly different.

    Seattle Police Chief Kathleen O’Toole echoed a similar sentiment and said the policies of the Seattle Police Department regarding immigration status will not change. Read more here.

  • Sheriff Urquhart speaks on 3 ways to save yourself if A Shooter enters your office

    DEC 9, 2015

    Three things you can do when a mean-mugging man with an assault rifle blazes into your office, according to King County Sheriff John Urquhart:

    “The first is run,” Urquhart said. “Go out a back door, go out the front door if you can, break out a window, climb out a window.”

    Plan B: Hide. Go into an office, barricade the door and keep quiet until you’re sure police are on the other side of that door.

    Your third option is to be fierce.

    “If you can’t run and you can’t hide, you’re going to have to fight,” Urquhart says. “You’re going to have to take out that shooter, because otherwise you’re probably going to get killed anyway. Get a fire extinguisher, get a chair; get something heavy. Go after him and try to take him out before he takes you out.”

    Brazen? Yes. Also totally new advice.

    “This is something we’ve never told the public before, but we need to be honest now,” Urquhart said.

    He stopped short, though, of saying you buy a gun.

    “Owning a gun, carrying a gun is a very personal decision,” he said. “Make sure you know how to use that gun. But, boy oh boy, you better know what you’re doing.”

    He said police can’t keep mass shootings like the ones in Roseburg, Oregon, or San Bernardino, California, from happening. And, Urquhart warned, that police probably aren’t going to be on the scene in the first critical minutes of an attack.

    “People are going to have to take responsibility for protecting themselves in an active shooter situation,” he said.

    Police made major changes in tactics after the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado. There, police waited for heavily armed SWAT teams to arrive before going in to the school. Some of the wounded lay for hours before being evacuated.

    Urquhart said his force now follows the new tactic of going immediately into a shooting scene and not waiting for help, although preferably a four-person team would be used.

    “That’s a complete change in tactics,” he said, “but it’s what we have to do.” He has told his deputies to carry a weapon even when they’re off-duty.

    Urquhart said it’s too easy for dangerous people to get hold of guns, whether that’s a mentally ill person or a person radicalized by ISIS.

    “There are criminals and would-be criminals who should not get firearms,” he said. “We have not yet figured out how to keep that from happening. We need to have that conversation.”

    He criticized a 1997 law that has prevented scientists from using federal money to study gun violence.

    “Right now they’re prohibited from doing that, and that law needs to be changed,” he said.

    So what’s the average person to do? Urquhart says people have to plan.

    “People are going to have to save themselves,” he said. “They have to think ahead, preferably practice what they’re going to do if a shooter walks through that door.”

    Produced for the Web by Gil Aegerter.